Stick Holding

I think Dave DiCenso has a great feel on the stuff I've heard. (no straight ahead stuff I admit but..)

I like this discussion though I truly believe that the grip itself doesn't matter. There is an exclusivety (sp?) that I really like with traditional. I LIKE the fact that not a lot of guys use it anymore and I almost always get compliments on it being "cool" by non-drummers as well as non-musicians. I prefer the way it feels for me and I really never use matched anymore.

Again, I personally do not believe that either grip is "better" nor do I believe that you could tell the difference in many cases if you were blindfolded. I know for a fact having had this discussion offline with members of HOD that people here have been fooled.

I'd never even claim to be able to tell. [img]wink.gif[/img]

oh yeah, I don't teach much but when I do, if they're serious students I teach traditional. (this is a whole other side I guess, what do you teach others regardless of what you use) I do it because of my aforementioned statement, "if you can play traditional, you can play matched." I believe this to be true and that arming the student with both is the best way to go.

As far as technique, there's no difference whatsoever in terms of speed and power. You can get fast, powerful, clean with either/both. I saw this proven hundreds of times during my drum corps days. Fact is, there are so many variants of traditional anyway it's almost wrong to call it one grip.

On one drum, the issue does not exist. It's when you are covering great distances on the kit, from drum to drum, that it becomes an issue of control.

With trad, it's very important to account for the movements. Loose 'trad-drips' are very limiting.

Buddy, Carl and Virgil have very powerful trad-grips that I would recommend for those who are committed to it but that know they want all the power and control matched gives them.

As for emulating the trad-grip double, with matched, it helps to work on the doubles and use them often and also consider the option of where the stick is held. Away from the butt-end will give most a more trad-feel and better rebound off the drum(s) but I suggest practicing a lot from the ends to build up strength in the hands.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 30, 2004 03:27 PM: Message edited by: peter c ]</font>

Quote:

---

The difference is it sounds better (to me and many others), and it's EASIER to play certain things (to me and many others) and so THIS IS THE BIG WHY FOLKS. A technical advantage that allows you to do things that would otherwise not be possible (or as easy) or else we would have at least ONE matched player having the same flow that the great traditional grip players have. As of now, there is none.
Coincidence? I think not.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Steve, you are mentioning something that is personal to you. Justifying it by saying "and to many others" does not make it true.
Sure you are free to discuss your personal experiences and feelings of one grip verses another but the point still stands - one technique that may feel better and easier for you to facilitate your chops, might not be the same for another player, FACT. It is the nature of being human and therefore one is not at liberty to generalise.
As for the comment about match players not having the same 'flow' as trad players... I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. Are you honestly saying that Dennis or Novak don't have a flow or looseness about their playing based on their choice of grip? Come on mate! Surley you A) don't believe that and B) could tell from listening to a recording.
As someone who like you plays trad and has worked for hours and hours on the nuances of the grip, I fail to see how this has an advantage over matched. I have friends who play matched and have stupid chops. I couldn't touch their technique with a shitty stick! Does that mean that one grip is better than another - NO it does not. To repeat myself, it's horses for courses and whatever works best for that player.
I would agree that there may well be a medical reason why trad players may have a bone structural advantage, if that makes sense! But If Novak's facility is lessened by his choice of matched grip, then I'll take it any day!

dazzler, why do you think we mean "faster" when we say "better". you could give us a little more credit than that. as far as speed is concerned, i don't think the grip matters too much.

i think steve hit it right on the dot. weckl said in a recent clinic that he once decided to try going match in the early 90's but quickly went back to trad not because of his longer history with trad but because it had more advantages and versatility. he demonstrated some ghostnote and rudimental techniques with trad grip that you couldn't physically do (while staying comfortable) with match grip, which totally affects your flow in solos and grooves. mainly because with match, the hand is generally on top of the stick holding it up whereas in trad, the stick is resting on top of the hand (creates more flow with the bounce technique... i guess this correlates with the whole trad and doubles concept).

i also agree that you really need to know how to play trad to say that grip doesn't matter. you can only understand where we come from only if you know the subtleties, tricks, and techniques that come from years of practice and playing. otherwise, you're just pulling stuff out of your butt by saying "oh well dennis and novak plays match." trad players on the other hand know both sides well since the right hand always plays match.

dazzler, i agree with you that guys like novak and dennis are great match grip drummers who flow extremely well. but steve's point is that they don't flow AS WELL as weckl, vinnie, or virg. and i really don't think this is personal opinion. they really don't. you can DEFINITELY hear it in recordings and see it at shows. last time i saw novak play he switched to trad grip for some jazz stuff i'm sure he felt uncomfortable doing with match. even dennis switches to trad for certain stuff! this just shows that there are minor and major limitations to match compared to trad.

i know a lot of guys who play trad and match well but chooses to play trad. i don't know anyone who plays trad well but chooses to play match (except dave dicenso).

Wow, I had no idea Dicenso played drums on all those Shelter and Cro-Mags records. That totally makes me like him.

I agree that traditional grip offers some great advantages over match to play certain things, and I love it and use it most of the time, but also match have some advantages, and there are some things that are more easy to do with match, so... why don't use both!.
I think that match, german, french, american, traditional, etc. etc. are just small parts of the big picture, wich is a overall technique, and the more options you have, the more posibilitys that you have the best option for each situation.
For me the great advantage of traditional is like Derek once said: it's like two techniques in one. I haven't practiced rudiments with match for more than 6 or 7 years, but my plaing with traditional somehow helped to keep my match chops intact!.

And speaking of the flow on the drums, I think that it should come from the mind and not from the hands... the job of the hands is to play the musical ideas of the mind, and if you let them do the "thinking", your sound would be more chops and less music.
IMO the flow is more on the creative side than the technical side.
When I hear players like Dennis, Gary, Chad etc. I have the impression that they have enough technique to execute their ideas, and when they can't, they're good enough to find ways to do it, and they may not have the Colaiuta type of flow, but I don't think it's a matter of hands.
On the other side, I think that if Vinnie, or Dave decided to play only with match grip, it would take just a couple of months to sound with the same flow, because that's the style of drumming they have in their minds... well, I'm just thinking out loud so maybe I should shut up now... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Curse me down, but I'm starting to think this pedestal that we put vinnie on is getting too high. I honestly don't think vinnie represents the ultimate flow that every player should have including dennis and gary. I think, for example, dennis, has every bit as much flow in his chops as vinnie, in fact, I would go as far as to say dennis grooves better, at least, in certain situations, and vice versa.
It's been said that some things are better played with trad, and some things better played with matched. Wouldn't that mean that trad doesn't exclusively allow better flow, but equally with matched?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 31, 2004 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

Rudy, I agree with you, but I think I can understand what Steve is trying to say. If you do a deep analizis of these players you may find some extra "something" in the playing of guys like Vinnie, Virgil, and other trad players that you don't find in guys like Chambers and Wakerman. It's not about speed, or presicion... maybe is the way of phrasing or something else, I don't know.
It's not than one it's better than the other, it's just different.

When I switch betwen one technique and another, the big difference for me it's more "psicological" than phisic... When I'm with trad. I think in a different way. My technical level is almost the same with both ways but I end up sounding different, and maybe that's the kind of "something" that Steve is trying to say, but that's defenetly not a rule... when I hear Gary, I sometimes hear that same "extra thing" sound of the traditional players.
I don't speak english very well, so I hope this doesn't sound like nonsenses, and you get the idea. [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 31, 2004 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Pedro G ]</font>

Yeah pedro, I understand perfectly what you say, your english is very good, and I understand what steve is saying too.
I understand there are differences in the nuances of what can be played with trad grip. The problem I have with this is that I personally don't think the trad grip players are doing anything better than the likes of chambers or novak. Just different drummers playing their own way, their own style, as far as I'm concerned, all with flow and groove. But, is steve smith a trad grip player? I'm not sure, I think he is. He has a million chops, yet I still don't think he flows anything like vinnie, chambers, weckl, novak. I kind of put flow down to more of an inner thing, regardless of grip. I'm probably completely wrong, but it makes for interesting debate [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Interesting topic. I myself am a traditional grip player and I can see both sides of the discussion. I come from a drum corps background so traditional was what I was taught and it works for me for any style I need to play behind the kit. I remember reading an article about Thomas Lang in Modern Drummer and I really liked his rational behind the traditional grip...

"My first teacher told me that was the way you hold the stick, and that was that. I didn't dare think there was another way. It seemed natural and logical when he explained that is was an 'asymmetrical grip,' not that I wasted much thought at the time about what that meant. Only later, when I also started playing matched grip- which I consider easier and doesn't require a lot of training- did I realize that changing grips affected my THINKING immensely.

What I find attractive about traditional grip is that I think differently when I hold the stick that way. The asymmetrical grip tends to trigger asymetrical thinking. In other words, I tend to think less linearly. I think more complexly and polyrhythmicaly and play things that overlap more... With matched I tend to think more rigidly and linearly: I bounce things from right to left and play simpler patterns. When I hold the sticks traditionally, my right hand wants to play certian repetitive structures, while my left hand wants to go MAD."

I think this rational kind of hits on what Steve is talking about with the phraising of the great traditional grip players.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 31, 2004 04:51 PM: Message edited by: zm ]</font>